ayman, of barack obama launching his presidential campaigned by having louis farrakhan give the invocation. in some ways, worse. what he said about al or, what he said about the antichrist being gay, what he said about is land been internally violent, the republican party got a pass on it, because unfortunately, -- >> of all the people to choose from on the right nikki haley shows. him remember that. mehdi, great show as always, enjoy the rest of your evening off. coming up on ayman, election the nihilism, fox didn't believe the lies trump was peddling, but still, they broadcast them to millions of viewers. now, those lies live on a new generation of gop stars. plus, the most important election you've never heard of. wisconsin attorney general josh -- joins me to discuss the critical state supreme court race, and why it will affect all of us. and, abortion on the line yet again. a new ruling this week could

for access into even greater doubt. we'll explain all that and more. i'm ayman, let's get started. >> election denialism and conspiracies have a stranglehold on republicans. sitting politicians, party activists, everyday registered republicans. the idea that elections, multiple elections, plural here, have been stolen and that it's only republican elections that have been stolen is now common wisdom from many corners of the gop. just last night, the michigan republican party elected christina karamo as their new chair. here's a quick refresher for you. she's a 2020 election denier. he lost her race for secretary of state by 14 points in last year's midterms. she has refused to concede her race, making countless baseless claims of election fraud. instead, in arizona, kari lake

is still fighting the results of her gubernatorial election, and late this week, the arizona court of appeals rejected lake's challenge of her loss to now governor katie hobbs. it's the second court ruling that is found zero, zilch, none, evidence to support lake's claims that she won the race. but instead of accepting her loss, she is now pledging to take her case all the way to the arizona supreme court. still pretending that her race was somehow stolen from her. and the thing is, christina karamo and kari lake might never actually concede the races. after all, donald trump is still claiming two and a half years after he lost the 2020 election that somehow, he won. he laid the groundwork for these conspiracies that are now spreading like wildfire. and of course, trump wasn't promoting these lies alone. maybe, if he had, those lies

wouldn't have had so much support from within the republican party. instead, the right-wing media machine amplified this disinformation and these lies, and this week, thanks to a newly unsealed court filing, we know that these amplifiers knew that these lies were, in fact, that. they were lies. dozens of text messages from hosts, producers, executives at fox news, arguably the biggest promoters of the big donald trump lie and his allies, well, they're pushing all of these in the days after the 2020 election. now, texts show that these employees thought what team trump was saying was ludicrous, kooky, and complete bs, even rupert murdoch the himself, the head of fox, said, quote, really crazy stuff, and damaging. his network broadcast a press conference where ex trump lawyers, rudy giuliani and sidney powell, made allegations about hackable voting machines and other conspiracies. murdaugh, in realtime, knew

what trump's lawyers were saying was wrong and false. but there's no indication that he tried to stop the network from continuing to broadcast those lies. these now disclosed messages are part of the 1. 6 billion dollar lawsuit the media giant by dominion voting systems, one of the biggest voting machine vendors in the country. the lawsuit alleges that fox knowingly aired false information about dominion software based on competitive and political pressure. the texts paint a damning picture, and to this day, the network still spreads trump's election lies. and kari lake's election lies. and christine karamo's election lies. so it's no surprise, then, that in arizona, there's now a network of activists who believe that u.s. elections are so unreliable that they're trying to convince supervisors in maricopa county and phoenix to throw out all the elections that republicans lost in 2022. yeah. all of them. the minds of people have been so poisoned by republican

candidates, yet republican politicians, and, yes, republican news media outlets, and i promise you this, it's not gonna stop anytime soon. joining me now is my sunday night panel. renee graham, opinion columnist and associate editor at the boston globe, and marissa, msnbc columnist. it's great to have both of you with us. rene, i'll start with you. you know, this newly-released court filing on the dominion lawsuit really suggests that fox honed in on these fraud claims for rating boosts, and out of fear that they might lose viewers to more conservative media outlets that were emerging at the time, and even pandering to the more extreme right. your thoughts on this ongoing lawsuit^ do you think we will see the media giant held accountable for fomenting these conspiracies and these lies? >> you know, i certainly hope so. you know, the funny thing with fox news is, there's no rule that says to promote a lie, you have to believe the lie.

people like -- tucker carlsen are not stupid. they know that the election was fair. they know that donald trump lost. and this was purely a calculated move to keep viewers watching. trump was upset with fox because of a call they made on election night in 2020. this was a way to keep them close. this was a way to keep trump from telling his followers to go other places. what they did was shameless and appalling, but it's not shocking. you're talking about the same network that was denigrating the covid vaccines well every single person there was vaccinated. this is what fox does. there's no morals here. it's only about ratings and keeping viewers entertainment and watching and, you know, boosting their advertising numbers. >> i'm so glad you brought up the issue of vaccines. i think that's one of the points that's often lost and forgotten. that fox, at one point, had a vaccine mandate for its employees to entered the building.

but they're willing to have their unaired hosts peddling vaccine conspiracy theories. foxes counterclaim in this defamation lawsuit in part is based on new york's anti slack law, which is aimed at protecting people exercising their first amendment right. are there dangers in fox to use these -- defend their case? they're trying to make this about free speech, but it seems that so far, dominion has been able to successfully highlight that fox was doing something more than the exercising free speech. >> i think it's really consistent with fox's kind of instinct to be the victim. they always think that they are the victim of the system that they have created. it's sort of like they've created this monster, and now it's coming back on them. >> i wonder where they get that victimhood mentality from. >> yeah. i can't imagine. i really can't imagine. and, so it's like all these things are happening to them, and their victim of their actions, and suddenly, this

billion dollar lawsuit is brought against them, and suddenly, they have to figure out how to explain their actions, and as we're seeing through these documents that have been released, there's no good explanation for the way that they behaved. >> let me ask you about georgia for a moment, renee. there are ongoing investigations into trump and his allies. you have these newly unsealed portions of a special grand jury report on trump's election interference in that state, in georgia. we learned that grand jurors believe some witnesses may have lied under oath, and on the federal level, of course, you've got a special counsel looking into trump's handling of classified documents. now asking for testimony from his lawyer. he's also speaking to arizona officials about what they may have known around the election. he's trying to subpoena or has subpoenaed the vice president, former vice president, mike pence. lots of moving pieces here. when do you think we might see that she'd drop? will donald trump face consequences? >> i think at this point, you know, i lean into georgia being

the most likely place. but there's so many investigations going on right now that there has to be accountability somewhere. the just has to be. georgia seems like the one that has the best smoking gun. he's on tape, you know, making this comment about getting these extra votes so he can win, when he knows he didn't win. so, the fact that the grand jury in georgia said there's no evidence whatsoever of voter fraud, there's already conversations about, yes, there are people who believe lied under oath in their testimony, it's coming. it feels like it's not coming quickly enough in that we've been waiting for ever. but that shoe is going to drop. i have to believe that at this point. >> marissa, i want to get your thoughts on the news out of arizona, and the election conspiracies that have been circulating there. these networks of activists, they want to throw out elections that only republicans lost. surprise surprise. but my question is, would this be the case if these were elections that democrats lost?

it seems like the writing is on the wall here. they're just saying republicans lost -- doesn't that pretty much tell us what they're all about? >> yes. absolutely. they're completely disingenuous, and to even call themselves activists is kind of a ridiculous thing to say. of course, the ruling around a central theme, a central cause, but they're not fighting for anything. there's absolutely no proof that anything that they're fighting for is true. and so, they're just trying to kind of, you know, get people riled up, and not believe in the government that they have. and they have a democratic governor, and they have to, unfortunately, live with that, and of course, our system allows them to bring lawsuits, and to exercise that right, and to protest, and make their voices heard. but none of it is based in fact. and just because you believe something doesn't actually make it true. >> all right. panel, please stick around. we're just getting started. we have to come back to you later on this hour with a lot more to discuss.

up next, wisconsin attorney general josh -- joins me to discuss the most important election you've probably never heard of. his state's critical supreme court race. first, richard lui is here with the headlines. hey, richard. >> hey, good luck to you. -- former president and stirred hospice care saturday, biden tweeting tonight, saying, quote, we admire you for the strength and humility you have shown in difficult times. may you continue your journey with grace and dignity, and god grant you peace. carter decided to end medical treatment following a series of hospital stays. this foundation saying that the former president is 98 years old and is the longest lived u.s. president. and a catholic bishop who church leaders remembered as a peacemaker was found dead of a gunshot wound on saturday. the l. a. county sheriff's department announcing sunday that los angeles archdiocese auxiliary bishop david o'connell was killed, and said it was working to find those responsible for his death. o'connell was 69. more ayman right after this break.

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state election commission, drew those maps, and said the quiet part out loud. writing in email republicans can be especially proud of the city of milwaukee casting 37,000 less votes than cast in the 2018 election. with the major reduction happening in the overwhelming black and hispanic areas. >> democratic governor, tony evers, have also signaled directing his lawyers to ask the court to invalidate a court map if the open court seen goes to a liberal-leaning justice. the election could also determined a total abortion ban which was enacted back in, wait for, at 1849. it is currently the law of the land since last year's dobbs decision. they attorney, josh kaul filed a lawsuit alleging that the ancient law is unenforceable

and could very well make its way to, you guessed it, wisconsin state supreme court. and that math was continent torn in general, josh ball, joins me now. >> thank you so much for joining, us i appreciate your time. let's talk about the big picture if i can. the share of the state democratic party, ben wiggler, has called this race most critical election 2023. both for wisconsin, and for american democracy. what are your thoughts on the upcoming election? was a big hyperbolic in my characterization? >> first thing thanks for having me back in the program. and chairman with there is exactly right. this is the most important election in america this coming year. we have a primary tuesday and the general election early in april. the wisconsin supreme court is not a knife's edge. there is a one vote

conservative majority currently. this election is going to determine whether we continue to have a conservative majority or whether there is a shift in the majority on the court. that is vitally important on so many issues in wisconsin. as you know, what happens in wisconsin impacts the whole country. it's been the tipping point state in the last two presidential elections. and having members of our supreme court who are committed to protecting our democracy is going to be vital. >> the race, as i mentioned, and as you have suggested has attracted unprecedented amounts of national attention. the spending, so, far for the primaries has already topped $6 million in ads. the general election, it doesn't happen until april 4th, it could end up being the most expensive race in the nation. what does that tell you about what is at stake? >> it is a reflection of how big the stakes are and you could really see that by looking at some of the 4 to 3 decision we seams of former

state supreme court. you just highlighted a few of them but prohibiting the use of most absentee ballot drop boxes. that was a 4 to 3 decision. putting in place really extreme gerrymanders for both a congressional maps state legislative maps. those are 4 to 3 decisions. allowing a scott walker appointee to stay on and to republican state senate confirmed their replacement. that was a 4 to 3 decision. and if you go back to 2020, the states that are at the chan center of donald trump's efforts to overturn the election. my office defended those cases in court, and we won every single one of them. but in most states, those cases were laughed out of court. it wisconsin, there was a 4 to 3 state supreme court decision. but we prevented the election from really becoming chaos. that is not the kind of margin you want to see when it comes to a democracy. so electing one of the candidates here who believes in

equal justice under the law, and our democracy, and will equally apply the laws is critical. >> i'm so glad you brought up what happened your state in 2020. the big concern among the other issues that impact your state. if a conservative-leaning justice does, in fact, win this race. how concerned are you or should we be about what this could mean for the next presidential election in 2024? >> i think we should all be concerned. donald trump is on the ballot again. we all know what happened in the 2020 presidential election. he is promoting folks around the country. just endorse the state planted candidate wasn't election denier. a state senate special election year. there is a real possibility that there's going to be another effort to overturn the results of our elections in 2024. and having our court system hold people in key elected offices to stand up for democracy. it could very well be just as critical in 2024 as it was in 2020. and supreme court election coming up is one of the most crew selections. as we look ahead to what may happen down the road.

>> let me ask you about abortion in your state. the kansas abortion referendum. where voters voted making abortion legal in a traditionally conservative state. with your lawsuit in the pipeline. with his potential final destination being the state supreme court, again. how do you see abortion factoring into this race? >> it has already become an issue. in the state supreme court race. it certainly was a major issue in our governor's race, and in my reelection. which happened this past november. i think was one of the key issues and being successful. both governor even, send me. because we are very clear that we are going to fight to restore access to safe, legal abortion. and the supreme court race we've seen the two conservative candidates we endorsed by wisconsin right to life. one of the conservative candidates that she supported the overturning of roe v. wade. since dobbs was correctly decided. so there's no question on this is going to be an important issue in this race. but our supreme court addresses issues across the spectrum. and so, the results of this election i would have an impact on so many different issues. here in wisconsin, and because

of wisconsin's significant picture, and turns on the national political picture as well. >> kanaskat's republican drawn legislative match and whether or not there's any possible not, it's really scrutiny, but given the emails that have emerges or any possible course of action that can be taken to undo these legislative maps? >> i certainly think it's possible that we are going to see legal action regarding the maps. the way it's playing out is that the governor of those maps, my office represented him, we advocated for the adoption of the maps to cover proposal patients. the state supreme court set a very restrictive standard initially saying that they were going to take the map that the fuel changes from the prior maps. which were themselves

gerrymandered. the governor, initially, one on some of those maps. but the u.s. supreme court threw them out. there were a lot of issues that have not yet been litigated but i think very well could be litigated down the road. >> wisconsin turning general, thank you so much for coming back on the program this evening. >> up next, republicans continue to loosen gun regulations despite an increase in gun violence. my panel tries to explain there in the despicable position after the break stay with us.

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this country stuck up, so do the republican moves to deregulate guns. one person is dead, ten are injured after two early morning shootings and memphis. just last night. in georgia, nine children are recovering after being shot at a gas station on friday night. the youngest victim, five years old. today, students at michigan state learned they are going back to class, tomorrow. just a week after a shooter rampage to campus killing three students and injuring five more. according to the gun violence archive, more mass shootings are recorded than there are days in 2023 so far. 79 mass shootings in just 50 days. here's what republicans are doing about all of this. in florida, gop state lawmakers are moving closer to allowing people to carry loaded guns. without a permit or training. and texas, this month, the conservative-leaning fifth circuit ruled that alleged domestic abusers can keep their guns. get this. missouri republicans have blocked a proposed ban on kids

carrying guns in public. yes, kids. not 18 year olds. children! so if it seems like we're moving away from gundy regulation at a time when we needed the most. it is because we are. and you know who we have to thank for that? my sunday night panel is back with me to answer that question. renee, what do you make of this counterintuitive reaction from the right? shootings go up, so do moves to deregulate and more republicans are walk around the halls of congress with guns on their lapels. >> it says, if nothing else, just how embedded the nra they are in all gun lobbyists. and it pushes the idea that the more guns we have the safer we will be. if that were the case, america would be the safest country on the planet. but we are not, we have more

mass shootings, as you mentioned, that we've had days this year. this is catastrophic. you are not safe anywhere. adele there was a decision by the fifth circuit court saying the domestic abusers can't have guns. 70 women a month are killed by former or current to be partners. most mass shootings are domestic violence related. but we don't talk about that nearly enough. people think a lot of it is going to be from schools, churches, supermarkets, no. the most dangerous place for him to be. the most dangerous place for a child to be is in their own home. and you have politicians who are not doing anything to make sure their last guns out there. >> speaking of children we mentioned in the intro. missouri lawmakers couldn't even pass a law against banning kids. i mean, literally, kids. from carrying guns. what is wrong here? >> i think with the acceptance

of school shootings it's sort of the natural next step. if kids are allowed to be shot in school than it should be easier for them to carry guns in school, right? so, everywhere has become a battlefield. like rene said, we are not safe anywhere. you could be at school, you could be at the cinema. you can be at walmart. and it's like we are in a war zone. and so the gop wisdom is, wow, everyone should be armed. including children. and that isn't just not make us any safer. i think they know that but they have certain incentives to keep pushing that idea. >> reena you saw that stat in the intro. you mentioned that more mass shootings and counter days in 2023. i am really reluctant to frame it this way. but does fatigue have these tragedies set in and affect voters in this country? i mean how they cast their ballots?

the republicans can't on this kind of fatigue to advance their pro gun agenda? which is kind of, i don't ever used to work and say accepted but this is a reality. and changing it is becoming increasingly difficult. >> i hate to say it as a blanket statement. but i think to some degree it has been normalized. you know? what do you do with 79 mass shootings. that is measuring's, that's not talk about local shootings in this country. which, you know, are not mass shootings. so, i think there is a degree to which had been normalized. and we have this wash, rinse repeat cycle for these things. and republicans are just waiting for it to be blowing over. they can't even be bothered to do the obligatory thoughts and prayers anymore. because they know it's gonna

blow over. they know something else is going to happen. and so the onus is on us to keep the pressure on these politicians. and say we do not want more guns. we demoralization. we need more reform. republicans feel like they got it done last year after the shootings in uvalde texas, and in buffalo. by having this very very meager law that they signed on to. now they think they're good for another 30 years. we can't afford to wait another 30 years. for this to stop. >> this is exactly why we continue to have this conversation. we try to keep the pressure on these politicians for any kind of action. obviously 92% of american support background checks there's no reason why that cannot happen. we stick around got a lot more to discuss ahead. a trump appointed judge that and access to abortion and we want to talk about that. i think i changed my mind about these glasses. yeah, it happens. that's why visionworks gives you 100 days to change your mind. it's simple. anything else i can help you with? like what?

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abortions nationwide is on the line. a high stakes ruling on access to an fda-approved abortion drug called, --, is due to be headed down this week by a trump appointed federal judge and amarillo texas. that location is no coincidence. the antiabortion group,

alliance for -- medicine filed its lawsuit there, specifically. so that it could be heard by judge matthew casimir. his courthouse has become a favorite destination for republican seeking to challenge president biden's agenda. so who is this guy? cast mark previously served as deputy general counsel for a christian conservative legal group that pursues religious liberty cases. and senses appointment to the

bench, -- has blocked trump's remain in mexico program. rule that matters in texas must have parental approval to obtain federally funded birth control, and curtail protections for lgbtq workers and trans kids. then, there is the time he argued against safe sex marriage. no fault divorce. birth control abortion and sex outside marriage. yes, all in one op-ed. so i guess you can't really blame a right-wing group for choosing a district with an apparent ally on the bench. but keep this in mind. in a worst-case scenario for him. this abortion ruling, doj lawyers would likely seek a stay from the fifth circuit. if that doesn't work, they could appeal to the supreme court. my sunday night panel is back with me. marissa, you saw how this judge has ruled in the past. how concerned are you about this upcoming ruling? >> i am remarkably concerned. he has shown a pattern of terrible judgment. and he has shown that he will go along with whatever the christian right tells them to do. and he is part of the christian right. he has referred to transgender people, in the past, it's having a mental disorder. and the case you mentioned before about requiring consent for birth control. thousand other christian right piece for the plaintiffs in that case was a father whose daughters were taught abstinence only education. and he was upset that in a hypothetical situation that would've seen a shot or's with secret control that they would have the right to do so under the law. so this judge is completely rogue and there's no telling what he'll do. except we do know that he will

go along with whatever are his choices. >> what would it mean for women across this country of medicated abortion is no longer allowed because of josh customer? >> it would be devastating. there's no other way to put it. he would be absolutely devastating. these pills are also used by women who suffer from miscarriage. and i think that when people start talking about these things and the right to life, no, no these drugs have other purposes. such as being's minister to women who suffer miscarriages. so they don't have to continue to carry a non viable fetus. it is cruel, but here we have a

situation where you have this judge. and everywhere to continue to go to this judge. and this is really the lingering stench of the trump era. what he did to the courts. not just a supreme court. but also in the lower courts. and this is what we're dealing with this judge who has issued one terrible ruling after another. we know where his politics than. we know where his view stand. he's an idealogue. and he's a very dangerous man. and the decisions he's making are going to cause many people to those are lives. >> let's talk about the politics at play here. this week, the book signing in houston, mike pence the former vice president was overheard saying we need to ban abortion pills in this country. we talked a little bit about this with attorney general earlier on the show. but why would republicans want to make this a big deal right now when we know it is not a politically popular position and was widely credited as a reason why the republicans did so poorly in the midterms. >> my only explanation is that republicans are enjoying losing.

i don't see any sort of strategy involved here. what you mentioned previously about the gop choosing christina--. their head or chair. there's not a lot of logic that seems to be going into these decisions. leaning into election denial. leading into abortion. it is really perplexing. rene, i want to get your intake on what i outlined in the intro about how right-wing groups have been shopping around for districts with their law suits. you called it judge shopping, which i think it's a brilliant term for. it is actually a smart strategy? or is it anti-democratic at its core? >> it is both, actually. there's a reason why they are doing this. they want to make sure they have the most sympathetic ear. they just don't want to take the suits and for them on someone who might go against him. they want to stack the deck. they're not just putting their thumb on the scale to put in their entire body on the scale. that's what they're doing with this.

but the idea that you can't--or you're looking around for the purse was going to rule in your favor. it does feel anti-democratic. you know, but i don't think they care about democracy. i think they proven that time and time again. but they want to do is win, and get their way. it's a gift that keeps on taking. rights, agency, that is what they are after. >> and they also know that was a broken serve supreme court majority if it doesn't faculty up to the supreme court. thank you all very much for joining us this evening, i greatly appreciate your time in and all of your insights. up next, a new documentary that takes an uninspiring look at rudy giuliani's life and lies. and we're going to take a look at one of the people featured in that documentary. former new york city mayor, mel de blasio joins me live next. u won't clock out. so u bring ubrelvy. it can quickly stop migraine in its tracks within 2 hours... ...without worrying if it's too late or where you are. unlike older medicines, ubrelvy is a pill that directly blocks a protein believed to be a cause of migraine. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors.

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america's mayor in the wake of september 11th terrorist attacks. so when he became the definitive trump supporter defending him from mueller, extorting ukraine for dirt on biden and pushing to overturn the 2020 election, the question i think all of us asked was, what happened to rudy? let me pose a counter narrative. what if that version of rudy giuliani is who he has always been. a demagogue. who exploited resentments and anger to his own political advantage. that is the subject of the new msnbc documentary series, with truth is not truth. the rudy giuliani truth which airs tonight on msnbc at 10 pm. >> faith and patriotism are

pretty much one in the same. this is an identity that was forged in the 1950s, a lot of sociological have written about it. it was seen as a anchor for social life, a family life, political life, all contingents. and rudy was very much from that cloth. he made no bones about it. >> i want to make white people feel safe about here, they believe in an autocratic form of leadership where one white man's the boss. >> and i want to introduce rudy giuliani and i will let rudy say a few your words. >> what you said was our priorities so we could have a very close working relationship. >> there is no appeasing people like rudy. there's no appeasing people like trump. there are people who core value is white supremacy. >> my next guest is one of the people interviewed for this documentary, former new york city mayor bill de blasio, he joins me now, mister mayor, it

is great to see you again. thank you so much for your time. one of the biggest highlights from the documentary is from the first minute when you say rudy is the anti christ. tell us why he's deserving of that title in your eyes. >> once upon a time, when he was u.s. attorney. he seemed to be a reformer. he seemed to be someone who believed in the rule of law. he helped clean up the teamsters. help defeat the mafia. a lot of people, myself included, admired. that then he runs for office. he turns into a demagogue. he's the worst kind of racial appeals. for his own good and to divide our city, and ultimately divide our country. this is a guy who went from being a paragon of equality under the law. the someone who really worked overtime to divide us. and to undermine that notion. it is very painful because it could've been something much better but. >> why do you think that change happened? i don't know if you have an insight but from your experience, obviously, you

served in that position. was it the pressure of the job? was that the access to power? what was it. because you discuss in the documentary. and as you mentioned you viewed his work as a u.s. attorney in the 80s. with some admiration. what changed? >> i think once he sought political office and as a republican and democrat. he decide his only path forward was to appeal to the worst kind of racial rhetoric. and to try and use division as a tool to try and, you know, cover the space and six. there's a horrific moment in 1992. he lost the 19 90s against david dickinson our come back campaign and on the reelection.

and then tonight to giuliani is trying to come back. he is trying to encourage off to the police officers to protest to the point of breakdown unrest, and almost a riot. >> he uses the most divisive and race of mine which he can conceive of. and the rudy we had one known was suddenly very evidently gone. bass for the year 2000. i was working on hillary clinton's and campaign against rudy giuliani. his mayor and the nypd officers tragically, horribly, killed an unarmed innocent man. giuliani authorizes the release of this man's sealed juvenile record from when he was a kid. and says this guy was no boy. he denigrates a guy who was killed unjustly by the police. turns out patrick horseman was an altar boy, literally. these stories, there are so many but the theme is exactly the same.

and appeal to the worst racial impulses for his own personal gain. and then he counsels later on donald trump to do the exact same thing. >> i'm so glad about that point up because in some ways you can see that it was almost a dress rehearsal, what he did in the early 90s and certainly as police right speech where he whipped up this racial resentment towards the lincoln 's and then what we saw on january 6th and what played out with this attempted coup in defending the man who incited this coup against our democracy. >> why the documentary so important is exactly the point you're making. after 9/11. he got this extraordinary kind

of loss. everything that it happened previously seem to been forgotten in public discourse. but he was the same exact person. in fact, it is often forgotten that he tried to convince people new york city to keep him as mayor. even when his term was expiring. so we had shaves of what would happen later or donald trump. giuliani literally said he was indispensable after 9/11. the democratic process should be suspended so he could remain as mayor for a greater period of time. so, the appeal to racism, the division, the underhanded tactics, the lack of belief in our constitutional system, and our elections. all of this, you could see 20 years ago and more. and he, look, he helped to create the environment that encourage donald trump. and donald trump, remember going back to central park five the 19 80s. calling for them to be executed. buying a full page ad. donald trump had facilitated rudy. giuliani but giuliani help facilitate trump. the song remains the same. but finally i think people are seeing through it. >> i could be wrong but i guess there's some critique on us, the people, the public that didn't see this earlier. and both donald trump and rudy giuliani. why do you think it took us, the american people collectively so long to see rudy giuliani for who he really was? because, i think, in part 9/11 was a searing and so emotional. and all of us felt patriotism and defense of our country. i think giuliani manipulated at

very cleverly, honestly. i also think the strong leader, joy reid made a great point in the clip he showed before that the notion of a strong leader. unfortunately is not maybe the same examination deserves. of course there's overlay as she mentioned. racist overlay that he played into perfectly. but i think we got a bit careful sometimes, we of course want strengthen our leaders but that can't be the cloak that allows all the other sins to suddenly be divisible. >> perfectly said there mister mayor. greatly appreciate your time new york city mayor bill de blasio. thank you sir. >> stick around we got more ayman mohyeldin, next. man mohyeldin, next. there's nothing 'small' about them. that's why at t-mobile for business... you'll save more than $1,000 versus verizon. and with price lock guarantee,

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one truth is in truth. and rudy giuliani story. and you four part series from time studio. it provides a unprecedented look, including interviews with

giuliani's own son andrew, and explores the former prosecutor and mayor's rise to power. fall from grace. and how little changed in between. this first episode takes giuliani's journey from brooklyn to the southern district of new york, and has filled for us rates for mere that set some on the to your endless controversy. watch right now on msnbc and streaming on peacock. and thank you for making time for us. make sure to catch ayman mohyeldin, back here on abc, sundays at nine, follow us on twitter and tiktok and instagram at eamonn msnbc. don't go anywhere, when truth is in truth, the rudy giuliani show begins right. now i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. goodnight. i'm andrea canning and this is dateline. our mother was an incredibly beautiful soul. what she had was charisma. she said i love you. in my heart i